Curse

Ravious · May 07, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Has UB only really changed the prejudice from profession-specific prejudice to a skill-specific prejudice for groups?

In other words, was the elitism always there but only in a different form (aimed at a different group)?

This is not a discussion of why or how UB sucks. It's just to discuss whether UB created elitism or merely shifted it from, for example, not allowing Mesmers to join a DoA group, to not wanting to waste time without UB.

Alexandra-Sweet · May 07, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravious

Has UB only really changed the prejudice from profession-specific prejudice to a skill-specific prejudice for groups?

In other words, was the elitism always there but only in a different form (aimed at a different group)?

This is not a discussion of why or how UB sucks. It's just to discuss whether UB created elitism or merely shifted it from, for example, not allowing Mesmers to join a DoA group, to not wanting to waste time without UB.

It became a standard in PvE, so everyone that doesn't use it is looked down upon.

October Jade · May 07, 2008, 08:34 PM // 20:34

I'd say so. I like to run a SY/TNTF paragon in the fissure and underworld but can't even get into groups anymore. I have r10 Norn too; it's just not very fun to use.

MetalMan · May 07, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

The thing i want people who hate ursan to understand is...

Once ursan goes, you go back to the trinity/very certain builds.

And i struggle to see how button mashing ursan changes much from button mashing tank/nuker.

Your either mashing buttons for an ursan or mashing buttons for a nuker/war/whatever build you happen to run.

Ursan is just a quicker way of button mashing.

Masao · May 07, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

It hasn't really shifted elitism, it's made a finer line between two groups, people that have it and people that don't.

It's ridiculously easy to hit R10 anyway, it should take most players a week tops to max, so there really shouldn't be a problem with elitism if you just invest a short amount of time into it.

@October Jade: That's just the usual Ursan stupidity showing; they don't know that an Imbagon would be just as beneficial as a monk.

Ravious · May 07, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalMan

The thing i want people who hate ursan to understand is...

Once ursan goes, you go back to the trinity/very certain builds.

And i struggle to see how button mashing ursan changes much from button mashing tank/nuker.

Your either mashing buttons for an ursan or mashing buttons for a nuker/war/whatever build you happen to run.

Ursan is just a quicker way of button mashing.

I think this post further reflects my question...

The Red Messenger · May 07, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

There will always be people who want to do things as efficiently as possible =)

right now, that happens to be UB as far as most pugs are concerned.

MetalMan · May 07, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Yeah, sorry, i didn't really answer the question.

I think that ursan has increased discrimination, BUT it has also reduced it.

Want to play interrupt mesmer?

2 Years ago it was very unlikely.
Now it is very unlikely, but you at least have another option.

Want to play Nuker?

You could 2 years ago.
Theres still a few non-ursan parties these days, i personally see a couple.

Its down to you if you hate it or not, but people who say its discriminative need to look back 2 years ago and tell me that didn't discriminate.

Ravious · May 07, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

No, don't be sorry. I mean you hit what I meant on the head in a different way than I tried.

MetalMan · May 07, 2008, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Meh, thats what you get by not sleeping much in over a week. My bad :P

Well, at least theres an easier version to read now instead of the random i put earlier.

slowerpoke · May 07, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

a single skill shouldnt dominate a whole skillbar let alone the whole pve meta. balance shouldnt only be for the big boys

non profession specific skills = baed
pve grind title aligned skills = baed

Earth · May 07, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalMan

I think that ursan has increased discrimination, BUT it has also reduced it.

I fail to see how something can increase and reduce at the same time.

Anyway, Ursan increased discrimination. Before Ursan, you could still get into pugs with your mesmer etc. Now, everyone uses Ursan (because of the hard time getting into pugs with underrated classes) so you're pretty much forced to use it. If you want to pug.

Cathode_Reborn · May 07, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalMan

Want to play interrupt mesmer?

2 Years ago it was very unlikely.
Now it is very unlikely, but you at least have another option.

Wanted to play a mesmer before Ursan? You're right, it was unlikely. Pretty much no one would take you.

Want to play a mesmer now? Still unlikely that a group will take you.

What about Ursan? Well if you're using that, you're not really a mesmer anymore, are you?...Seeing that your entire mesmer bar has been replaced by a PvE skill...

There's only 2 professions among PvE pug's now:

Mo/E and Ursan/X.

I made a nec to play a nec, I made a paragon to play a paragon. I didn't make either of those to play as a button-mashing bear.

Kusandaa · May 07, 2008, 08:49 PM // 20:49

IMHO it simply shifted the elitism... from 2 warrior + 2 monks + as many nukers as possible to 5 or 6 Ursans (any class) + 2 or 3 monks. Any class... and I say that in general, because some groups refuse to take anything that's not an ursan warrior (those guys especially hate monk ursans, as they say they don't have enough armor... don't think they've heard about brawler insignias).

Richardt · May 07, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

I don't think it was elitism that "forced" people to be a certain prof. to do stuff. It was simply a misunderstanding at what the other professions can do and coming up with something simple that you can PuG with.

If you consider the old DoA Obby Flesh group for a sec. It required 1 tank, some eles, a necro and monks. Everyone knew what their job was and how to do it-which made it easier to orgainize and get a group.

With UB you got the same deal-but this time it's anyone and everyone that has Ursan and some monkage.

Without an identifiable team build it's difficult to gather a PuG 'cause everyone has an opinion as to what can go in. One person might say "Ooo! Get a mesmer!" and another might say "No mesmer's suck! Get a necro!" and the end effect is that nothing gets done.

But with said team build everyone knows what you "need" and knows their role.

Now the elitism that comes from running UB is the belief that in order to be "good" you need r10 Norn and r8 LB-which isn't true. Back in our UB days (before we knew better :P) at DoA we took r1 Norn and LB's with us and did just fine.

And for those that say once Ursan goes, it's back to the War/Monk/Ele Trinity-seriously that setup is craptastic. If you don't want to run it, get your friends together and come up with a team build that works for all professions involved. The so called "Trinity" is only to streamline PuG groups 'cause the average PuG group is bad.

Take a look at the Fastest Elite Area Times thread-you'll find a wide variety of team builds and setups shown (granted the skills aren't shown, but half the fun is figuring out what they ran

).

Kook~NBK~ · May 07, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

To question #1 - Yes.

To question #2 - Sort of. Now there're two competing types of elitism.

On the one hand, there are the "NO URSAN" purists who think that only "scrubs" use Ursan. While there are lots of bad players that need to use Ursan to have half a chance of succeeding, there are many places that the only way to get into groups (and not only PUGs) as a Mesmer, Assassin, etc. is to use Ursan. These folks aren't handicapped by their skill, they're handicapped by the "trinity" mentality that permeates the elite areas of the game.

The main reason why Ursan replaced these cookie-cutters is because Ursan makes things go so much faster -the same reason why there have been cookie-cutter groups all along.

On the other hand, there are Ursan groups out there who are "R9+ only" groups. (I've even heard of cases where parties would only take R10 Warriors - with the monks, of course - because of the increased armor!) Again, these groups are interested in only one thing: Acheiving their objective in the fastest time possible. Of course, when they get so selective as to say "R10 Warriors only" there's reason to suspect that this group (or merely it's Monks) aren't that skilled at the game, giving rise to the "only scrubs use Ursan" stereotype.

Ravious · May 07, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowerpoke

a single skill shouldnt dominate a whole skillbar let alone the whole pve meta. balance shouldnt only be for the big boys

non profession specific skills = baed
pve grind title aligned skills = baed

Should three professions dominate the PvE meta then? Is there much of a difference between a specific skill build dominating versus a specific group build dominating?

Chushingura · May 07, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravious

Has UB only really changed the prejudice from profession-specific prejudice to a skill-specific prejudice for groups?

In other words, was the elitism always there but only in a different form (aimed at a different group)?

This is not a discussion of why or how UB sucks. It's just to discuss whether UB created elitism or merely shifted it from, for example, not allowing Mesmers to join a DoA group, to not wanting to waste time without UB.

The Long Answer
Yes, that's basically it. Back then, people simply wanted parties to consist of the "Trinity": Warrior Tank, Ele Nuker, and Monk. The rest of the slots could be filled with Necros and Mesmers and Rangers.

Then came Factions. Ritualists were smiled upon slightly, until they began dominating PvP etc. They also never replaced Monks as being the sole Healer in a group because regardless of any arguments, Monk healing is always greater and superior to any Ritualist healing. Divine Favor alone makes Monk healer better, regardless of any "player skill," "noobs" etc etc arguments.

Sins were shunned because the old Wammos played Sins like...a wammo, rushing into mobs and getting smacked. Sins became the new Wammo and probably remain so. However, they made great solo farmers, especially for Greens. Blame the Assassin for killing the once prosperous Greens market.

Then came Nightfall. Dervishes became the new wammo now because of the popular belief that a scythe wielding melee class would look so cool all the typical wammos would make one. For a time, Dervishes were the new wammo, as people played them as Warriors. Paragons went dead in PvE etc after Anet raped them time after time after time over and over.

Then came EoTN and Ursan Blessing. Now, anyone and their grandma could do anything anywhere because of one skill. All classes are basically equal now (hooray for equality!)...as long as they have r8 r9 r10 Ursan. So yes, Ursan solved the profession prejudice, but spawned a skill prejudice.

Now, I've played as Ursan and cleared the elite areas as an Ursan, and I agree that it is faster. However, I've also cleared the same areas with "old school" groups. Both work, but the difference is the time.

The reason why people love Ursan so much is because:

1. Easy to form groups.
2. Easy to use. 123412341234 repeat 5 12344321124 etc
3. Ursan groups (good ones anyways) clear areas faster.
4. Time is a great factor. Why clear X in 3 hours when you can clear in 1.5?

But even Ursan now has it's restrictions. If you are not rank 8+ ursan, in many cases pure rank 10, you are not wanted. Why? Time. Rank 10 Ursan kills faster than if you are not rank 10.

Reason why people hate Ursan:

1. It's boring. 123412341234 repeat.
2. Literally requires no skill. Any Ursan can go wammo/Leeroy and just spam the above keys.
3. People prefer to actually THINK and use SOME skill.
4. People actually want to use their characters as intended, not a generic skill.
5. Some do not have Eye of the North.
6. Some do not want to grind 160,000 points for one skill.
7. Some do grind, but hate grinding all over again to get Ursan for another character.
8. Ursan ~ Rank in PvP. Showing off Rank means nothing in PvE, and those who do this, PvErs laugh at j00. Boasting about being Ursan and its uberness makes you look worse than the old wammos. Even wammo sins are higher up in respect than some, if not all, Ursans.

The Short Answer

Elitism always existed, exists now and will forever exist in this game or any other online game.

Bryant Again · May 07, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

In terms of discrimination it didn't really solve anything. Whereas you had to be X, Y or Z profession you now need to have this skill, and not everyone has this skill.

Richardt · May 07, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravious

Should three professions dominate the PvE meta then? Is there much of a difference between a specific skill build dominating versus a specific group build dominating?

They only dominated the PvE Meta 'cause of the ease of making a PuG group.